Curse

Outerworld · Mar 01, 2011, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

For me, until I see groups actively looking for ER Eles, they will always be a niche setup. I won't deny that they have more raw single-target healing power; it's pretty much a fact because of how well ER synergizes with certain skill setups. But again, they are used pretty rarely from an overview standpoint.

While alot of groups don't activley search for them, they are becoming more popular it seems.

thetwistedboy · Mar 02, 2011, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

shows how little you understand about the current meta. ER eles can outprot and outheal monks*. This is a fact. I would be happy to debate this but you clearly have no interest in seeing anything other than mindless praise for monks so I'm not going to bother.

After we all get through determining that ER's do in fact outmonk a monk very easily, you move on to whether or not it is actually worth having in a group over a monk. An ER sure can spam prots and infuse as much as it wants, but is it really worth it? is that much healing and prot power actually needed? And what if ER gets interrupted? Or stripped? ER's also don't have access to seed of life.
Monks have advantages, I'm just not going to debate this because "you clearly have no interest in seeing anything other than mindless praise for [ER's]"

HigherMinion · Mar 02, 2011, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

After we all get through determining that ER's do in fact outmonk a monk very easily, you move on to whether or not it is actually worth having in a group over a monk. An ER sure can spam prots and infuse as much as it wants, but is it really worth it? is that much healing and prot power actually needed? And what if ER gets interrupted? Or stripped? ER's also don't have access to seed of life.
Monks have advantages, I'm just not going to debate this because "you clearly have no interest in seeing anything other than mindless praise for [ER's]"

derv party heal outheals monk party heal. unlucky, monk is even more useless than ever now.

Vazze · Mar 02, 2011, 07:26 PM // 19:26

You don't see parties looking for ER emos for the same reason they are looking for UA/HB monks: they have no idea. The fact that ER emo is a spammer and it is boring to play, or that most casual elementalists picked their main profession because they like damage dealing and not healing might also play a role.

LifeInfusion · Mar 02, 2011, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

You don't see parties looking for ER emos for the same reason they are looking for UA/HB monks: they have no idea. The fact that ER emo is a spammer and it is boring to play, or that most casual elementalists picked their main profession because they like damage dealing and not healing might also play a role.

Playing elementalist and having a prot or hybrid monk in PVP lets you be a good ER. Playing an elementalist and never having touched a monk, you get a terrible ER ele. That's the reason most people that play eles opt for E/A sin spam.

As far as heal party spam on recharge, the only way a monk can match 50-53HP/s (avatar of dwayna) since there's no aftercast or cast time is to be pumping out super powered UA+HB Heal parties with a BiP necro. (In simple terms: 1 recharge vs X cast + Y recharge +0.75 aftercast... X+Y<=0.25...which is impossible to achieve) Given that you need 3 elites for one bar...I'd say screw it and run a Avatar of Dwayna Dervish that benefits from being stripped, rather than relying on 3 fragile enchantments (UA+HB+BiP). At worst, Meditation gets stripped with a bulk enchantment removal and you pay 4 energy per cast. You could still do 4 energy every 3 seconds so 50HP/3= 16.67/s = 8.4 regen. That's not counting 2 energy (after Mysticism) stuff like Fleeting Stability, of course. Aura of Thorns/Grenth's Fingers/Conviction/Zealous Renewal need teardowns.

Healing Burst @16DF=51per cast, every 4 seconds. Assuming EBSOW+ "40/40" kicks in every time and it's 3/8 cast every time rather than 3/4 for 64% of the time, it's still once every 3.125 seconds. But energy-wise you're limited to every 3.75 seconds unless you run selfless spirit. With every 3.125seconds, you get 16.32HP/sec which is less than the worst case, stripped, Avatar of Dwayna. This isn't even realistic due to most people running less than 14DF.

UA+DH+HD = Assuming EBSOW+ "40/40" kicks in, it's still once every 3.75 seconds with 0.75 aftercast and 0.5 cast). [email protected] --> 103/(3.75+0.75+0.5)=20.6 but you're limited by energy to every 5 seconds (5energy on 3 pips=5 seconds), so 103/(5+0.5+0.75)=16.48/sec which is less than the worst case Avatar of Dwayna. The advantage of UA is you can pump out 103x2=216 over 1+0.75+1=2.75sec, which is akin to a lame Healer's Boon + UA mimicry bar with 17 spec in Heal+ DF... For the Avatar of Dwayna, you can only get 53HP/s due to flash enchantment recharges. You could get away with putting 0.25 cast Guiding Hands which is not a flash enchantment but you have aftercast which makes it 1 recharge effectively like a flash enchant due to 0.25+0.75=1. UA+HD+DH is a more flexible bar since you can slot deny hexes and d-kiss/gift/dismiss, although the avatar of dwayna bar can dump Wind/Earth prayers spec and run Prots too.

From a skill-slots used (or wasted in the case of Avatar of Dwayna with 0 spec earth prayers skills that last 1 second) perspective...
for 3 skill slots, 16DF UA+HD+DH.... vs 15Mysticism Avatar of Dwayna + Meditation + Whirling Charge (50/6=8.33HP/s) but once you count meditation ending every 20s (due to no enchant mod) you get 10.833/sec which is still decent. Toss in Fleeting stability (with 0 spec so it ends fast... Sand Shards and Harrier's Haste cost more energy) and then the results diverge, with the Avatar of Dwayna build getting 15.33HP/sec. This is the precise moment AoD becomes better since you are using 0 energy per heal. Add in Mirage Cloak and AoD pumps out 20.83HP/s at 15 Mysticism.

easy math:

15 spec Mysticism ... 50HP/sec = Heal_Party_Heal/(1 cast + 2 recharge + 0.75 aftercast)

Heal_Party_Heal = minimum 187.5 per use ... a normal 16DF UA + 14 Heal = 176 ;16 in both = 191 ; 15 Heal 16DF = 183 (keep in mind Dervish -35HP is on top of innate +25 extra health so it's -10 net)

16 spec Mysticism ... 53HP/sec = Heal_Party_Heal/(1 cast + 2 recharge + 0.75 aftercast)

Heal_Party_Heal = minimum 198.75 per use ... which is the upper bound on UA+HB Heal Party .... 17Heal prayers + 16 DF gives 198 ; 17 in both gives 202

Never mind that you need 15energy/3.75 seconds on 3 pips, which means 4energy/sec, or 12 pips of regen (BiP + BR to add 9 pips. It would add +6 and +3 = +9).

The only caveat here is that the HB-UA bar can also pump out 200+ d-kiss. Patient spirit isn't going to outdo ER eles' 200+ heal.

I charted this out a while ago in http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=12

see http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3...bhealparty.png

You could go all out and run "40/40" heal + EBSoW for half recharge ... I'm not going to redo the calcs with recharge/cast adjustment because you'd need over 16 pips of energy even without recharge mods. With EBSOW + 40/40 you have (0.8*0.8*0.4=0.256 --> 25.6% chance of not getting half recharge).

So in essence the reason you want a Monk is to pump out heavy duty hex removals like Peace and Harmony, divert hexes, deny hexes and seed of life (+32hp/hit with 16DF)...although Expel hexes on a Necro would work at the cost of an elite or Convert Hexes on the ER ele. Condition removal is better on necros, paragons, dervishes, and rits (Foul feast+Plague sending/Plague signet if you want to drop your elite, Mend body and soul with a SoS or ST rit in the team, Pure was Li Ming, Recovery, Weapon of Remedy + Wielder's Remedy, Cautery Signet, It's only a flesh wound, Avatar of Melandru). Restore condition is not as strong as in PVP due to the ER slotting prots and Soul twisting rits having insanely low cast times.

thetwistedboy · Mar 03, 2011, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

derv party heal outheals monk party heal. unlucky, monk is even more useless than ever now.

I agree. But the dervish, sadly, does not heal heal through hardmode mobs very well.

ER's are for healing and mitigating damage in single targets.
Dervishes are for healing the entire party during a fight, albeit in small amounts.
Monks have a balance between single target and party heals.

HigherMinion · Mar 03, 2011, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

I agree. But the dervish, sadly, does not heal heal through hardmode mobs very well.

ER's are for healing and mitigating damage in single targets.
Dervishes are for healing the entire party during a fight, albeit in small amounts.
Monks have a balance between single target and party heals.

I run both for an OP backline

In Urgoz/Deep; two ERs bonding 6 players each and the AoD derv to mop up heals.

Kunder · Mar 05, 2011, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Derv makes minion groups invincible. Besides that, it also means that the ER is only required to prevent spikes, and few PvE mobs are going to be spiking more than once a second (ER spam rate).

LifeInfusion · May 01, 2011, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Update Thursday, April 21, 2011 : Divine Healing: decreased recharge to 12 seconds. ; Heaven's Delight: decreased recharge to 12 seconds.

so...20% less downtime on both spells

93/6=15.5HP/sec unassisted @16DF UA hatswap with 14 DF
103/6=17HP/sec unassisted @16 DF

compared to Healing Burst [email protected] /4 sec =10.5HP/sec

Age · May 03, 2011, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Healing Burst is still usefull on hybrid as a alternative to WoH along with using Aegis in PvE.